NOTE: This document is provided for historical purposes only.
Question and Answer Session
Why don't we close the formal part now, and if we can have the lights turned up where we can have some questions from the audience, there are microphones here, in the aisle, in the center, and you can direct your questions to any of us. Yes.
Q : I guess this question is directed to anyone on the panel. Coming from a utility, how are you addressing rotator cuff problems, use of hot sticks, for example. Are you having any concerns or problems in that area and, if so, how do you address that?
MR. JANOWITZ: Okay. I'm going to make a brief introductory answer and then turn it over to anybody on the panel who wants to respond. If you do a bio-mechanical analysis of the work of line people, for instance, using hot sticks, installing cross arms and insulators, you see that various tasks exceed, in some cases 50 percent, and in some cases 75 percent of the male population's ability to exert that amount of force in that position. And if you look at the female population, you see that many of these tasks exceed the strength capacity of 95 or 99 percent of the female population.
So we're dealing with tasks that clearly are likely to cause injury and place a high load on the rotator cuff and other structures at the shoulder. So with that in mind, I'm going to see if any of our panelists have a response to that in dealing with shoulder problems among line workers. Did I summarize your question that way?
Q : Yes.
MS. DEVLIN: In San Francisco, they use rubber gloving so they're not using the hot sticks anymore. They use rubber gloves directly on the lines.
Q : They don't use hot sticks at all?
MS. DEVLIN: No, not in San Francisco, they don't. They still have some shoulder problems. I think it's from the cross arms. They don't complain about them of course, but I've had a few talk to me about it. But they've stopped using hot sticks. They used to do it, but now they're into the rubber gloving.
MR. JANOWITZ: Okay. Pam.
MS. DEUTSCH: For us, we use a variety of length of hot sticks, and the complaints that we get the most on are the 12 foot long hot sticks. And all we've been able to come up with so far is just talking with them about good body mechanics, some alternatives, micro-brakes. It's not just the rotator cuff, they're usually using these 12 foot sticks bending over, twisting, turning --- everything combined.
Q : Right, right.
MS. DEUTSCH: And that's all we've been able to come up with so far.
Q : Okay. Thanks.
MR. JANOWITZ: Just one or two more comments. One is, wherever possible, suspending the hot stick from a rope that supports it at the middle of the hot stick, which is possible on steel towers, for example. And also, training people to the point where they can get the job done faster. Both in the case of underground work, looking at time in the trench, as well as time on the tower for overhead lines, that's another variable that can be looked at to help assess the success or failure of a given ergonomic strategy. Decreasing the time in the trench will yield a whole lot of benefits to the worker's safety. And if you're decreasing the time performing a task up on a pole or tower, obviously, the same is true. We found that the time the worker was exposed to an awkward posture with the hot stick was decreased with increased training. Yes.
Q : Part of my question I think already has been answered, because all of you have successful programs. But speaking from the regulatory side from OSHA and dealing with trying to come up with regulation, outreach enforcement, all of the things that will work for a variety of industries. And one of the items or issues we hear, especially from the utilities industry is we are different and we are special, because we are primarily mobile work sites, non-fixed work sites.
And what I didn't hear addressed today at any of your presentations was how you implemented the program elements of ergonomics, your ergonomic programs. I'm hearing more the really good solutions you've had, but how did you get from the start up to that solution? And the second thing is how have you been dealing with multi-employer work site issues when it comes to ergonomics, specifically when it comes to your program? And the third issue is how are you dealing with training with non-fixed workstations?
MR. JANOWITZ: Any comments on that?
MS. DEUTSCH: Yeah, actually it was something that I was talking about with Scott Schneider right before the session, for the most part, utilities are the opposite of construction. Construction really is a non-fixed work site constantly changing work force, work locations. Utilities do have a set service territory. They do have operating headquarters, main headquarters. And even though the work force moves around, every morning they're reporting to the same work location.
For our company, we have one group, the project center, that does the transmission line construction. And they work all over the service territory, and they do not have a facility. So they're the one challenging group that it's sort of hard to track down exactly where they are. We were able to get them for training. They reported in with another group to one of our other service centers and grabbed them for training at that point.
In terms of utilities being sort of different, you're going to hear that on every issues. Utilities are always going to claim that we're different, we're special. Sometimes they are different. They are special. One of the things that we've talked about a lot in Washington is the fall protection standard being applied to utility workers will actually create some or ergonomics hazards for the line men trying to comply with one standard and putting themselves at risk for something else.
The way we've been able to sort of initiate our program out in the field was getting buy-off obviously from the executives and then getting buy-off from management out in the field and then a very positive response from employees who participated in the Safety Days to tell stories and talk about the fact that they had back injuries, rotator cuff injuries, Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, and being able to immediately toss out fixes that they've known about for a long time but have never had a mechanism for being able to say, you know, this could be changed, and this could be changed. So coming up with some real quick successes where they've been able to see the results.
MR. JANOWITZ: I have a couple more quick comments. One is that I think it's actually easier to implement ergonomics changes in the utility industry than in construction, and I'd be interested in any comments from Scott and others in the audience about that. The other thing is that there have actually been a lot of positive changes even before we all got involved, or at least before I got involved in ergonomics and utilities, that are very useful but go unrecognized. And if you talk to line men, they'll say, oh, you can't change this job. It's the way it is. It's tough. It's rough. And this is how it has to be.
But if you ask them, well, did you use that kind of hot stick five years ago or ten years ago? "Well, no, we used to use this big old heavy thing, you know." And that wrench there, did you use that wrench 10 -- "... Well, no, that wrench is much better than the old one, we used to have -- let me show you what we used to have to do." And you'll find out, yes, they've really made a lot of progress. There have been constant changes. It's in a state of evolution as is everything else, and a lot more can be done. Scott.
Q: Yeah, I have to agree. I mean, the more we talk about these difficult to control ergonomics problems like those of fire fighters -- I mean, there's a whole host of occupations that have really difficult problems, but there've been enormous changes over the years. And when you talk about what was done five years ago, ten years ago, there really has been a big difference. We saw that today. We had our presentation in our session on the roofing industry and how that's changed. It's enormously different. Although there are still a lot of problems left to deal with.
And I agree, you know, with what Pam was saying. And basically, utility workers are a lot like construction workers, but the advantage is that you have a stable work force that you're working with over 20 years or 30 year basis. It's not changing, with every job. So there are some advantages in utilities that you don't have in construction, although we've made a lot of strides in construction as well.
I did have a quick question. One of the things we're looking at in construction more and more is using, people are using scissor lifts to get up to where the work is, to do ceiling work. I don't know that much about the utility industry, but how much do people use, like, skyjacks or things to get up to where the work is so they don't have to work overhead like that?
MR. JANOWITZ: Well, I'd like to hear what the panel has to say. The way I would rephrase that question is that there is a lot of use of bucket trucks as opposed to climbing a wooden pole. Okay. And the next question is, which is better from an ergonomics standpoint? Some people say the bucket truck's easier because they can hang their tools from it, and if they're taking off a cross arm, they can lay it on the bucket, for instance.
Other people say they can get much closer to their work when they're on the pole, climbing the pole. And therefore the extended reaches are decreased when they're on the pole versus the bucket. Having rephrased it that way, it sounds like Randy has something to add here.
MR. NICHOLLS: Well, our experience, given the rural nature of our operating territory, is that we're always going to have to climb poles. But I will say that, again, the truck technologies are getting better. They can reach higher. They're improving all the time, so we're constantly trying to find applications for bucket trucks. I mean, generally, we feel that it's a little less strenuous working from the bucket truck than climbing the pole.
MS. DEVLIN: I'll add one thing. We have a group called "Trouble Men." I don't know if you have trouble men, but this group deals with specific electric problems that need to be solved and fixed. And they had ladders on their trucks, no more. Now they now have their own bucket trucks that they take around with them, and they use them. They really haven't had much complaining. Sometimes it's hard. They can't always use them, because they may have to go through somebody's property to get in the backyard. But they do like their bucket trucks that they can take to their jobs.
MR. JANOWITZ: And you can see that buckets can be redesigned in the future to be adapted to utility work; there's no reason they all have to be square in cross-section. They could perhaps be triangular so you can get into closer, tighter places, Because we already know that the bigger the bucket, the worse the situation is from a horizontal reach point of view. Bucket trucks could be designed with "holsters" to hold your tools with various attachments that would assist in taking the cross arm off, for instance, things like that. Yes.
Q : Hi, Randy was kind enough to give us an address and a phone number, and I was wondering if Fran and Pam would mind us bothering them in the future? I know, I'd like you as a resource.
MR. JANOWITZ: Thank you for reminding me. The other three of us have written our names and addresses and phone numbers on a slip of paper here. And I'd be happy to read it off or to just keep it up in front if some of you want. It looks like you want me to read it off. Okay.
MS. DEVLIN: I have a handout up here, too.
MR. JANOWITZ: Oh, great.
MS. DEVLIN: I had to do some minor changes, because it didn't get stapled correctly. But it's up here if you would like that.
MR. JANOWITZ: Okay. Let me see if there are any other questions, and if there's time, then I'll read this off.
MS. DEUTSCH: Well actually, I was just going to quickly comment on Scott's question. It depends on the state, so Fran was mentioning that her folks rubber glove. In Washington State, you do not rubber glove. So it depends on the activity that our folks are doing. Half of the activities probably, they still would prefer to climb the pole. Most line men will talk about the fact that when we used to climb poles, we didn't have back injuries. Now, we're in these bucket trucks, we're up in the bucket, we're in these awkward postures, and now we're having some problems with back injuries. So it just sort of depends on what they're doing.
MR. JANOWITZ: By the way, the anthropometry of the usual bucket designs is such that if you're not at least five eight or taller, you'll be at a serious disadvantage in terms of bending of the spine. So that needs to be improved. Yes.
Q : I had a question about, like, the vibrating tools, and you mentioned gloves in some cases. I was wondering about what kind of benefits, and what kind of comments and acceptance you've gotten with that? And some people in their presentation mentioned reduced vibration pavement breakers and things like that. And I wanted to know, just in general, what cost would gloves be? Are these pavement breakers reducing vibration, some of those things?
MR. JANOWITZ: Why don't I begin with a comment and then turn it over to the panel. There are a number of pavement breakers that have suspension systems in the handles, or rubber bushings between the handles and the body.
We're going to be doing a comparison of 90 pound hammers; we really want to look at the total picture with a view toward worker acceptance as well as the vibration exposure to the worker.
And Fran made the point of substituting things like concrete saws and other means to reduce the use of hand-held pavement breakers, and the use pavement breaker attached to a back hoe so you don't have to use pavement breakers as much. With those introductory remarks, I'll turn it over to Fran.
MS. DEVLIN: The gloves. I'll do my best to respond to that, because one of my pet projects was looking for the right glove and especially important for those of you who work in cold climates. Gloves are hard to fit, one size doesn't fit all, durability is important especially when you're doing a lot of breaking. It's easy to rip and tear.
And then there was controversy, well, you should have your fingers completely covered, because this is a cold exposure and then the vibration travels tip of finger and down. But sometimes people don't like to wear full finger gloves, so we bounced around. Many of them were falling apart. We finally found one vendor where the gloves did pretty well hold up. Actually, the president of that company came by to talk to the workers about it. We have a glove questionnaire. I think what I didn't mention in my talk -- sometimes we don't follow through very well with questions like how well is this working?
But with the gloves, we did do that. So we found one that seems to be pretty good. Supposedly, it does reduce the vibration if you're going to be exposed. Is it for everybody? No. Because you still can't always get the greatest fit. So you just don't push it.
We don't force back belts on people, no. We look really at the posture and try to avoid the problem to begin with so they don't have to do all these other things. So again, the same with the gloves.
MR. JANOWITZ: Yes, Sure.
Q: Just for curiosity, I know in my state at least they're pushing for the underground versus the over for electrical services. Are you seeing any different problems now that there have been more underground installations? And if so, which direction are you heading?
MR. NICHOLLS: Well, from an ergonomics perspective, strictly, we found some other problems with underground. Yeah, a lot more shovel work. A lot, you know, lifting, working on pad mount transformers, that type of thing. Underground can be pretty intensive as well, but we just try to address it through work practices. We did identify a potential problem with some older trenching units.
With the older style, the operator has to look back to watch the trenching unit. Where the new ones, the seats swivel and you can turn around or you could use mirrors. But that's one thing. We're trying to get rid of those types of units, because we felt that constant vibration plus the rotated neck could be a problem. That's one example I can think of.
Q: The question I guess I got when I was looking at some maintenance tasks in a trench is that the space was designed for a person to be able to be in there but not to be able to work. I mean, in other words, if you had to reach forward, there was no way to put your leg back and that type of thing. Are any of those things coming into the design of the actual systems when they're put in anymore?
MR. JANOWITZ: Right. So you've got anthropometry issues. In other words, it's designed as if the worker were in a fixed position, not with a dynamic anthropometry approach.
MR. NICHOLLS: Do you mean like in a vault or something like this?
Q : Like a vault ---
MS. DEVLIN: A junction box or something.
MR. NICHOLLS: I don't know that we've addressed that. I think the NESC course has working clearance requirements that -- if you're within code, hopefully you'll have some room there, but I don't know. Like you said, I don't know if that would fit everybody, but we haven't addressed that specifically.
MS. DEUTSCH: We've had some discussion with our practices standards group to try to get them to think about some alternative ways of doing that. Because you're exactly right. These folks are staying there. There's absolutely no room. They're supposed to dig. They're supposed to do all of their work completely confined, and a awful lot of knee injuries, back injuries. We haven't come up with any ideas quite yet, but I'm hoping that there are some options.
MR. JANOWITZ: Okay. There are always options. I'm going to read off three phone numbers to keep it short. And the rest of the people's addresses or E-mail addresses are up here.
Pam Deutsch, from Puget Power. Her work phone is area code 206-462-3566. That's 206-462-3566, and her E-mail address is DEUTSCH, PJ@PUGET.COM.
Fran Devlin, her telephone number is area code 415-695-3383.
And my name is Ira Janowitz. My telephone number is area code 510-256-0628. My E-mail address is ILJANOWITZ@AOL.COM.
Okay. Thank you very much, all of you. Bye-bye.
(Whereupon, the Utilities session was concluded.)
